Discussion with Mr. Terada
October 2, 2012 at 12:02 During Photokina I had a meeting with Toshiyuki Terada, Manager and Group Leader of the Product and Marketing Planning Group from Olympus Imaging Corp. Present at the meeting were also Julia Rauther, Communications Manager from Olympus Europe and Henrik Tanabe, Product Manager from Olympus Finland. Our meeting was not really an interview, because as such interviews seldom lead to any new information beyond company FAQ, but a somewhat crisscrossing discussion on various issues and backgrounds on mFT and also FT when the latter had relevance with mFT. That's why this text is also written in the form of my synthesis of discussion.
We started by looking at some of my images, shot with PEN and OM-D bodies and various lenses. Mr. Terada was most interested in seeing OM-D images. These images led into comments on several usability issues.
One of them was of course the present ability to use FT lenses only with quite restricted AF capabilities with mFT cameras. We agreed on the great value invested in FT lenses, both for Olympus and for owners of FT lenses, me included. I have been using mostly 12-60 mm zoom, 50 mm macro and 150 mm tele lenses but also tested various lenses from 9 to 300 mm plus tele extenders. A few weeks ago I met Mr. Akira Watanabe from Olympus Imaging and he told me that there will be new bodies with which FT lenses will have their real AF performance. Now Mr. Terada gave me a similar, very strong assurance for the future usability of FT lenses. The words were different as Mr. Watanabe told me exactly how he sees FT lenses´ AF capabilities being integrated with future bodies. Because of confidentiality I can't write more on this. Now the situation was more official and Mr. Terada was not as candid on how this integration will be implemented and used more words like "investigate", "research", "discuss" and "no decision (on particular implementation) yet". Even so the message was clear
Thinking about expansion of OM-D series, there are two directions. One is filling the obvious gap between latest PENs and EM-5. And the other is the need for a (more) professional OM-D body. Which one of these will be coming first was not answered. Also filling the gap between these two series may come from either direction, as a more advanced camera belonging to PEN series or as a less advanced camera belonging to OM-D series. I would go for the first option, but that's just my hunch.
As a sensor issue I asked why there is no ISO 100 in OM-D as it has a Sony sensor. Mr. Terada replied that he can not discuss where the sensor is from. What he told is that they chose a sensor design which has image quality emphasis on higher ISO values rather than having a low base ISO. Lack of ISO 100 is not based on the programming of the sensor but comes from sensor's actual qualities and its base ISO is at 200.
One thing which I sort of sensed during our conversation was that life has been tough at Olympus R&D. There are problems created somewhere else, and I read between the lines that some features or lack of them in products have been born rather out of necessity to deliver products now than out of a longer term continuum and plan. Olympus has been struggling and stretching their resources to survive. Now, a week later, we know that sensor technology from Sony is part of the new agreement between Olympus and Sony. Already during our discussion Mr. Terada told that technologies like PDAF (phase detecting auto focus) on sensor and focus peaking are available for them, although "no decision yet" about usage.
I, personally, am not too sure of either. I have used Sony NEX-7 and tried Leica M. Focus peaking is not reliable in either of them unless you use magnification and then peaking is not really needed. PDAF elements on sensor are dead pixels for the actual image. To make PDAF fast and reliable you need lots of PDAF pixels, eventually lots of areas of pixels on sensor, which means dead areas in actual image. All these must be filled in with interpolated data from surrounding pixels. The better PDAF on sensor you make, the more it affects image quality. The more and the smaller focusing points you want, the more you suffer in image quality. Mr. Terada agreed on my concerns but obviously there is a strong demand for both of these features because of marketing reasons. However, it is not widely realised that some present PDAF on sensor systems like the one in Canon EOS-M (and EOS D650) can only give the initial direction in which to start focusing to and CDAF (contrast detecting) system takes care of the rest. I would still guess that both, PDAF on sensor and focus peaking, will be seen in future Olympus bodies, although this was not said explicitly.
(Another short term solution - while not actually discussed here - with the same basic aim would be a Sony style lens adapter with traditional PDAF elements. It also has limitations like e.g. in Sony's case the PDAF sensors, because of the size of adapter, are smaller, less sensitive and accurate, than the sensors Sony has inside camera bodies. Also this kind of adapter must have a fixed mirror which takes away one third of light from sensor.)
To support a real professional OM-D system, a pro service network is needed. That's something which is not cheap to set up. For a plain "pro" features body such service is, of course, not needed. Among features discussed was ETTR, exposure to the right. I would like to see a system based on the actual and native ETTR exposure information directly from sensor or raw file, instead of what now is possible only by using demosaiced "jpeg" values and lots of menu tweaking. Technically there is nothing preventing such a system, and Mr. Terada wrote many things down in his notebook. I also understood that showing live view exposure warnings before exposure is an Olympus patent, which would mean that Olympus has monopoly to the most accurate exposure indication there is. Another feature discussed was tethered shooting and camera control from computer. Mr. Terada was aware of the importance of this feature in studio photography. We went on discussing video features and the lack of IBIS while shooting video with 3rd party lenses. He explained it by the problem of camera not knowing the real focal length especially with 3rd party zoom lenses. I saw the responsibility being on the user just like it is in still photography and wished for firmware update. Again, also this was written into his notebook. The possibility of using DNG format as a pro raw format was also discussed among other smaller details.
Regarding lenses, I expressed the wish of many users to have more black lenses. Mr. Terada told that silver lenses (with no weather sealing) come from PEN design and they are the first option for general photography now. I was surprised and confused with this reasoning and still am as "silver" OM-D has different gray finish from PEN silver. Is the silver 75mm f/1.8 lens meant for PEN and not for OM-D? And how about the 45mm lens with cheaper finish which matches better OM-D? As a matter of fact he was surprised that I am not at all distracted by the difference in shades between my silver OM-D and the 12mm f2.0 lens. I found all of this strange, and somehow I was not able to understand his logic nor express my confusion to him. Anyway, according to Mr. Terada, there are no product categories based on image quality among Olympus mFT lenses. Well, I'm fine with the upcoming new 17mm lens having PEN silver finish and no weather sealing, as long as it is as good as a moderate wide angle as 75mm f/1.8 is as a short tele. Again, like others before him, Mr. Terada was promising high image quality for the new 17mm lens. About future lenses, there is no roadmap for lenses available to be published.
One hour, that's the time Mr. Terada had for me. It went too fast and I'm not going to list here every little detail mentioned. I had asked previously my readers to send me questions. There was too many topics to be discussed with Mr. Terada but Olympus has promised to read every question and comment.
As the last thing, I asked Mr. Terada what would a single OM-D cost if modified into a dedicated monochrome body. It would be expensive he said, and from my offers of 2000 or 20000 euros he chose the latter with laughter. It is not just about taking Bayer filter off. Everything regarding image (including exposure and focusing) should be re-done and programmed and he was not too sure about the suitability of this particular sensor either. With smiles we parted while sharing my silly idea of a monochrome technology demonstrator of OM-D - just for the fun of it.
-p-
FT, OM-D, Olympus, PEN, Toshiyuki Terada, mFT in Camera Bodies, Image Quality, Lenses, Trade show
Reader Comments (17)
Thank you very much for the interview and the detailed report! Unfortunately Olympus seems to have little interest in selling black lenses for the near future – that's bad news for photographers who prefer to pair their black camera body with black lenses (e.g. for street photography).
Thanks for an excellent article!
Thanks so much for your interesting post! I love to hear the Olympus comments on the readers questions ... I hope you will get those eventually :)
Very informative and nice post. I think a monochrome PEN or OM-D is an excellent idea.
Interesting reading. If the OM-D E-M5 was released sooner as an answer to competitors... imagine what can they do with future product, lets say "the E-M6". With another one year for development. Olympus is very precise and makes really valuable products. If only they had better marketing department...
Thank you all for nice comments!
ph: I don't think there will be any monochrome only cameras from Olympus. I like the idea but such a niche product would be too expensive to be succesfull.
Kornflejk: Companies, especially those of Japan Inc., draw from the same technology pool. Most of the time they are pretty much on the same level just following their own roadmap without any need to answer to any single competitor. Which, of course, does not rule out bad decisions being made, risks being taken etc.
-p-
"We went on discussing video features and the lack of IBIS while shooting video with 3rd party lenses. He explained it by the problem of camera not knowing the real focal length especially with 3rd party zoom lenses. I saw the responsibility being on the user just like it is in still photography and wished for firmware update. Again, also this was written into his notebook"
......aaand just a couple of weeks later there's a firmware update to address that exact thing :D http://www.43rumors.com/new-e-m5-firmware-1-5-released/
So thanks for letting them know! ;)
Indeed modifying stock camera to monochrome one would need quite a lot of work just for single camera.
Compared to ancient tech of sensor itself in 4/3 bodies NEX Alpha style adapter with its light loss would be still improvement.
But Nikon 1 seems to be doing fine with its hybrid AF. So that's no doubt the future direction of cameras which are intended to be actually capable to tracking moving targets instead of WAG estimating. Those sensor designs just need time to become more mature.
Besides that there's the need of body which could replace DSLR ergonomically.
With sensor and processing electronics costs shared with mirrorless I would still see place for one DSLR but mirrorless ergonomical body is MIA. Some years ago I tried lowly E-400 whose comfort in hand was really good for its low end position... something not present in two by four film era retro design mirrorless line up.
Panasonic corrected in GH3 most of the ergonomics problems present in "high end" mirrorless but would love to have same level Olympus with IBIS. But looks like 60mm macro will probably be my first mirrorless 4/3 product from Olympus, and stay as only one for some more time.
miemo: For sure I was not the only one letting them know. Anyway, looks like Olympus waited over Photokina before they finalized the new firmware. I would think that this IBIS update was more like a matter of turning one switch on than writing lots of code.
-p-
Esa: I would not call sensor tech in new Olympus bodies ancient. Or do you have more knowledge on this? NEX LA-EA2 style adapter would be an improvement for FT lenses with mFT bodies. At the same time it would not make mFT bodies with mFT lenses any better at tracking moving subjects. Also the best short term improvement for FT lens owners would not be this adapter but an E-x series body with OM-D style or better sensor and electronics etc. I don´t think that Olympus should spend limited resources to soon to be obsolete improvements but go for the bigger goal.
Nikon 1 seems MOSTLY to be doing fine because of more generous DOF and with two quite probable premises: subject is a close(st) object or subject is a face. If your subject is something else and not touching that single PD line, then their system knows nothing about it. As I see it, PDAF on sensor is just a stopgap solution while there is something better maturing.
On ergonomics: we all have different needs and opinions. Your´s is one, which I understand but do not share. It is not Olympus vs. Panasonic but I really go rather for FF or medium format when I need something bigger than handheld shooting with OM-D. Even video with any DSLR type camera is good only up to a point and beyond that there are better alternatives. I don´t believe in any one size for all solutions in photography.
-p-
A very insightful conversation!
On black lenses - I don't begrudge Olympus the fact that they are focusing on silver lenses, they are the ones who have access to the sales data so I am sure (i hope) that this decision is because it makes the most financial sense given their limited scope. Unfortunately for a portion of users (of which I am one), the build quality and aesthetics of the lens are very important factors. I fully intend for my investment in my lenses to keep me happy for the next 15 years or so. I have a limited budget and a long wish list. The lenses with good IQ, solid build quality and the right aesthetics are more likely to be at the the top of the list when I buy my next lens. If Olympus doesn’t want that purchase I am more than happy to buy a lens from Voigtländer or Schneider Kreuznach instead. When Olympus decide to make the 75 1.8 in black they will get an extra sale from me at least
On pro support – Sony have a mature support network, why not see if they can come to some arrangement. With the technology sharing agreements in place surely it makes sense to work together on support networks?
On a monochrome OM-D – I would buy one for sure, the IQ of a monochrome sensor paired with a lens like the 75 1.8 would be astounding. I would love to see Olympus be brave and try this out. Just like it did for Leica, this would have a “halo” effect across the rest of the product range. A monochrome says to me that this is a brave company that is interested in the art of photography, not just manufacturing cameras. You would need a larger than life character within Olympus to push this through despite the bureaucracy. I hope that person exists!
Personally I will wait to buy lenses for my OMD - until I can get them i black. Or I may look for Panasonic lenses...
Another explanation of the minimum ISO is that, according to DxOMark, the E-M5 significantly overrates the ISO settings. That is, ISO 200 is really 107, 400 is really 214, etc. So the sensor actually does support ISO 100 (well, 107) but Olympus isn't marking it as such.
Thank You for your service.
3 points:
1. Ricoh had PDAF on their P&S which wasn't implemented on the Sensor itself and with no Mirror. It worked amazingly fast in 2 stages, first guess by the PDAF then fine tuning by CDAF.
2. Connectivity - Olympus must integrate it with the right API. Namely, let us develop the UI and the full control over the camera using WiFi (iPhone, iPad, Android, Computer, etc...). Nothing more than API which includes Exposure settings, AF Point and Shutter release is needed. For example, I hate Olympus' implementation of Bracketing. This will give me what I want.
3. DNG support would be awesome! Yet it has a meaning only if Olympus will integrate their color profile. We want Olympus' Colors in our RAW when using Lightroom. I'd add JPEG-XR support as well.
Thank You.
Che, thanks! I´m with you seeing the need for this halo effect. Building it must start from something special. Olympus has been able to get kind of "camera for young artist" status in Japan. West is different.
Aaron: you are right there. On the other hand japanese camera makers have their own reference for ISO, based on jpeg shooting. Sadly we have no real single standard for ISO speed.
Thanks Royi! Again I understand what you want with API and UI and Olympus colors but I don´t share your wish for either. I want my tools ready for me but I shoot RAW to make my own colors. My emphasis is on creating images. But don´t worry, in the future cameras will be a lot more based on tailoring through software, which is good.
-p-
So, it's not possible to enable an ISO 100 or even ISO 50 setting via firmware? Too bad as I'm sure it's even harder to increase the max. shutter speed. This would be really welcome - after all, we're all buying these (really good) fast lenses to achive some nice small DOF.
Concerning the silver lenses:
Admitting that this was the reason for me to get the silver OM-D and not the black one, I just have to say that I value (small) size a lot over maximum aesthetics. So I'm very fine with subtle differences in the different shades of grey/silver and I'm quite happy that the Oly fixed focal lenses are generally smaller than the Panasonic ones. I'm not in Leica land nor collecting, I just want to take pictures - so it's easy for me to just get over the silver lens topic and keep on shooting.
Thanks for sharing your insights and thanks to Olympus for their commitment to improve the OM-D via another firmware update. They must have had a hard time and still they're doing a really good job. Thumbs up!
Black lens, silver lens, meh! Not an issue to me.
If the 60mm macro were only available is rose pink I would still buy it if it performs as previewed. By the end of the year I will have silver m.Zuiko, black m.Zuiko, Panasonic Leica, and old Zuiko OM lenses for my black E-M5.
And they will all be judged on how they perform.